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Journalist and podcast host Katie Couric sparred with Sen. John Fetterman, D-Pa., on Thursday’s episode of her podcast "Next Question," debating President Donald Trump and Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk — prompting a heated response from the White House.
Throughout the episode, Couric appeared to press Fetterman to disavow both Trump and Kirk, but the Pennsylvania senator held his ground.
At one point, Couric asked whether he thought it was appropriate that Kirk's body was flown home on Air Force Two, or if he should have been posthumously awarded the Medal of Freedom. She added that some critics felt those honors from the Trump administration were "over the top in terms of mourning someone like Charlie Kirk."
Fetterman said it was the administration’s choice to make before Couric pressed him about Kirk’s past rhetoric, which she said some would label "extreme."
Charlie Kirk's casket is removed from Air Force Two at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport on September 11, 2025, in Phoenix, Arizona. (Eric Thayer/Getty Images)
In response to Couric’s remarks, White House Communications Director Steven Cheung blasted the podcast host in a post on X Thursday.
"This washed up idiot @katiecouric is an absolute ghoul. She tries to justify the horrific assassination of Charlie Kirk. Disgusting people like Katie should be shamed and embarrassed forever," Cheung wrote.
Fetterman and Couric were discussing the attempted 2024 assassination of Trump in Butler, Pa., when the conversation shifted to Kirk’s killing.
The senator noted that while he didn't agree with many of the things Kirk said, it was "entirely appropriate" to allow people to grieve and respect their space without taking "that opportunity to push an argument or to remind people that, ‘Hey, I don't agree.'"
"A father of young children was shot in public because of his political views, and that's a tragedy, and give people the space to grieve," he added.
Fetterman maintained that while he "didn't agree with much of it," Kirk's rhetoric would "never justify what's happened" and that he chose not to "take the opportunity to argue his views after children lost their father in the most violent, public way."
After Fetterman added that "extreme rhetoric makes it easier for extreme reactions or to justify them," Couric countered by saying that some would consider Kirk's rhetoric to be "extreme."
Kirk was shot and killed while speaking at Turning Point USA’s event at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, on Sept. 10, 2025, according to The Deseret News. (Tess Crowley/The Deseret News via AP)
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Earlier in the podcast, Couric questioned Fetterman about his previous assertion that Trump is not an autocrat because his presidency is "the product of a democratic election." The podcast host argued that "history has shown that even leaders who come to power through elections can still govern in anti-democratic ways."
"So I have to ask when you consider some of Donald Trump's behaviors and policies, like deploying federal forces to U.S. cities, undermining the Department of Justice's independence, attempting to overturn the 2020 election. Does that not trouble you deeply?" she asked.
"Of course," Fetterman replied, adding that he strongly pushed back on Trump's claim that Pennsylvania was not a "fair and free election."
"But I think at this point right now, we are not in an autocracy," he continued. "We're in a democracy and that's why they were able to shut our government down. And that doesn't mean that we appreciate what's happening."
Sen. John Fetterman and journalist Katie Couric sparred over President Donald Trump and Charlie Kirk on the "Next Question" podcast on Thursday. (Kevin Dietsch/Getty Images; John Lamparski/Getty Images)
Continuing to press Fetterman on Trump, Couric asked if he felt that the policies the president is pushing are "anti-democratic." She then asked if, even if he doesn’t believe we’re living in an autocracy, he would at least concede that "some of the things that [Trump] is doing are clearly anti-democratic and potentially even unconstitutional."
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As a "committed Democrat," Fetterman acknowledged that the two have different opinions on whether Trump is an autocrat or not, but he doesn't "call people fascists or Nazis or compare people to Hitler," and argued those comparisons are "part of why we lost our election last year."
